(no subject)

[slemslempike]

I’m quite confused by this story. Basically, Ekklesia, a Christian think tank has said that wearing a red poppy is not as Christian as wearing a white poppy. What’s really puzzling is the British Legion response:
The Royal British Legion, which runs the annual Poppy Appeal, said his views were misguided and a white poppy would only confuse the public.
"The colour has become an internationally recognised symbol," said Brigadier David Wills, the Legion's director general.
"If you start to dilute that recognition by bringing in other colours, I don't think people will fully understand what they are buying the poppy for."
But there’s already a white poppy appeal to commemorate the victims of war while affirming pacifism. So it’s not bringing in other colours, it’s using another one (which has been going since the 1930s). Ekklesia (the think tank) also have a different take on the symbolism of the colour: the red poppy implies redemption can come through war, whereas a white poppy would suggest redemption through Christian belief. That’s not what the existing white poppy means. The PPU (who run the white poppy campaign) were quite strongly linked with Christianity, but (from their website) “Although Sheppard always argued from deep Christian conviction, he insisted that all were welcome who signed the pledge, whether from a religious or humanist standpoint”. I do realise that yahoo news is hardly the best way to read a story, but still. Confusing.

I have just had the conversation that I generally end up with in places of work, about drinking. Not alcohol, although that does crop up, but tea. I don’t drink tea. At all, as I can’t stand the taste. I also don’t drink coffee very often, and it never occurs to me to have some. Not drinking hot drinks at work is a source of great anxiety for people, and one of my officemates is puzzled by it. Interestingly, I am English and she is Korean, so while I often feel like it’s a national character thing, this wasn’t so much. I had to reassure her that I drink water because I feel like it. Then she asked if I hated chocolate, because I seemed very healthy. I looked at my “chocoholic” mug. Then I explained that I liked chocolate very much, and I wasn’t on a diet, or avoiding caffeine, and I wasn’t “being good”, I was just drinking water. Because I like it. And I also liked chocolate, a great deal.

Comments

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

Have you tried chocolate tea? Just in case you should be suddenly seized with a desire to drink hot drinks at work. (If you haven't come across it, it's worth looking for - it's made from cocoa and spices, and is very delicately flavoured and not at all like milk chocolate. Must get some more.)

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

I do sometimes drink herbal tea, but I don't often want a hot drink, and I certainly can't be bothered with the faff of the kettle.

Is chocolate tea made from something else entirely, or is it chocolate flavoured tea? I accidentally ordered rose tea once which was tea with bits of rose in, and was disgusting, but I had to drink it because I was at a supervision. I might try chcolate tea if it's not actually tea though.

[sam-t.livejournal.com]

No, no tea, or in fact anything caffeinated. It's part of a whole range of spice 'tea's under the brand name Yogi Tee, or something like that. You find them in health food shops, generally.

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

I hate it when someone archly asks me whether I'm 'being good' when I don't eat something I didn't want to eat in the first place. Ugh.

I am a bit dismayed by Ekklesia's trying to co-opt the already existing white poppy movement - how hard is it to google 'white poppy' before shooting your mouth off? I also think that the Royal British Legion's views on white poppies are, to say the least, the product of another era.

Then again, I generally wear no poppy at all, because I worry that wearing a white poppy will lead to confrontations with strangers.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

It happens a lot when I don't like butter/marg/mayonnaise on sandwiches. I'm not good, I'm fussy.

I couldn't find the Church Times article it came from, so perhaps they didn't mean to do that and it's bad reporting? But yes, co-opting a humanist/areligious movement for religious purposes is disturbing.

I generally have my head in the sand so much I forget all about poppies. I might try to get a white one though, but I'm not sure if I'd wear it.

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

Also, considering the number of people out there who are willing to assume a lugubrious expression and talk at length about their particular food allergies / the new diet book that's going to change their life / their internal troubles at the drop of a hat, why are people going round inviting that kind of thing?

'Are you being good?' could let you in for a forty-five minute tour of someone's intestines, and not in the slashy way, either.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it's like table manners in school stories - you can't take the salt yourself, so you have to offer it to people in the hope that they'll reciprocate. Sadly for them, I never do.

Ugh

[tabouli.livejournal.com]

I hate it when someone archly asks me whether I'm 'being good' when I don't eat something I didn't want to eat in the first place

You and me both. My personal favorite is the people who assume that I must be a tight-lipped, prudish, conservative vegetarian (!) who Disapproves Of Fun because I don't drink alcohol. I keep my alcohol consumption to no more than one because it turns my face purple and blotchy and makes me sleepy and dizzy, rather than tipsy and sociable. I eat meat, have liberal, pragmatic attitudes towards sex, and do not care at *all* if other people want to drink, take drugs, shag a different person every night, etc.etc.

Grzzzzz.

Re: Ugh

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

You have reminded me of another hate, which is people telling me how lucky I am not to smoke. Just...go away. I also quite frequently don't drink if I'm out, which gets people confused, especially when it's rounds. A few times I've asked for a coke, and someone comes back all "I got some vodka in it for you" oh dear.

Re: Ugh

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

'people telling me how lucky I am not to smoke'

Um... what?

I don't think anyone's ever told me how lucky I am not to smoke. Do they mean 'lucky you, you save money' or 'lucky you, you do not have to put up with society shunning you as a source of cancer' or what?

Re: Ugh

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

I think it's that they say I'm lucky not to have started smoking, so I save money am healthier and don't have the problems of quitting. Which, yes. But I know that, and telling me comes over as so patronising, like I'm a good little girl who hasn't succumbed to this sophisticated temptation that they're ehtralled by.

Re: Ugh

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

People often assume Peter is vegetarian too. He always thought it was because he has a ponytail, but perhaps it's the not drinking that confuses them.

[lsugaralmond.livejournal.com]

I was also confused by that story, mostly because I had no idea that white poppies were available as an option, I've never seen one. And besides, aren't the red poppies supposed to be about remembering the people who died, not commemorating war, so I don't really see the need for a different coloured one for pacifism anyway.
And I really don't get the Christianity argument. Is bizarre.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

I've very occasionally seen white poppies on people, and I knew that they existed, and I was pretty sure that they weren't religious, although I had to google to find out. I think that because it's the British Legion running the red poppies, it's not anti-war, so there is perhaps a distinction needed for people who want to say that they are anti-war, but not anti-those who died. Possibly. The article has confused me too greatly!

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Aha, since I'm a Green and a peacenik, I move in circles where a red poppy would get a raised eyebrow - see them all the time. The symbolism is, I believe, that it's remembrance drained of the bloodiness, hence white.

That said, I don't have a poppy at all this year.

[whatho.livejournal.com]

That's what I've heard, but the idea that the poppy is red because the bloodiness is somehow being sanctioned or celebrated confuses me - I thought it was kind of because the Flanders field poppies were sort of... red.

[pisica.livejournal.com]

Someone I dislike vehemently is always gung-ho about the white poppies, so I've heard of them, but probably never gave them a fair chance. But, having said that, I think having a special poppy which proclaims 'I am against war!' only creates a stupid false dichotomy, because I'm fairly certain that people who wear red poppies are not all out there cheering Tony Blair for getting us into Iraq, but if white = peace then you're not allowing red = peace.

If you're a pacifist, then you could wear a peace badge next to your poppy.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

"The idea of an alternative poppy dates back to 1926, just a few years after the red poppy came to be used in Britain. A member of the No More War Movement suggested that the British Legion should be asked to imprint 'No More War' in the centre of the red poppies and failing this pacifists should make their own flowers."

From the PPU website. The red poppies are not specifically against war, and it could be argued that they are about commemorating those who died with an unspoken "...so we could win" at the end. They're part of a culture of war as inevitable if regrettable. The white poppies are for a culture of peace.

[cangetmad.livejournal.com]

Quite a few people wear both red and white poppies, if that makes more sense to you? A peace badge, I think, is a bit different and more current-events-oriented. The white poppy is a tradition held to by people who lived through the world wars.

[pisica.livejournal.com]

I think I am more confused than before, given slemslempike's comment above.... red for remembrance and commemoration of those who fought, and white for a culture of peace?

The only white poppy wearers I know of were all born well after the wars, and I was getting the sense that it was new and trendy and hijacking an established symbol. Which is clearly not the case, so I amend my previous annoyance.

[notmarcie.livejournal.com]

I work for RBL (their one of my clients)

Their view on the PPU white poppy is this (well, this was last years press release)

"The Legion has no objection to any group expressing their views, nor in principle to white poppies. However, the Peace Pledge Union, which sells the poppies, does have a political message “Remember and Disarm”, which is not appropriate at the time of national Remembrance, which should be above politics. The PPU should choose another time of year to make their statement and not seek to ride on the back of the red poppy, which commemorates those who died for the freedom which we all enjoy, including, the right to free speech"


Which is a bit weirdly worded as they're saying free speech, but not on 11/11.

The poppy is not PC, in fact it's been criticised in the last few years and people have refused to wear it because of the Iraq war, Yamin Alihibi Brown (suspect I mis-spelled that) refused to wear it from 2003 until this year.


I'm disappointed in Ekklesia, they always seemed a more rationale Christian think tank.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought of the poppy as particularly PC either.

I hadn't come across Ekklesia before. If I can find their orignal article I'd like to read it, but at the moment it's a bit odd.

[chiasmata]

You know, weirdly enough, wondering whether you drink tea or not has occupied me a good bit this week. And yes, I am being serious! When's your train tomorrow?

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

Ha! My train gets in at 18.13 (it's the 15.09 from Lancaster).

Shall I bring things like pillow, sleeping bag?

[chiasmata]

Yes, please do! I am going to attempt to get our Scout to leave some blankets etc in my room (I leave before she arrives, so this may be a bit problematic), but definitely a sleeping bag etc would be v handy. I will meet you at the station, unless I text you to say otherwise :) In which case, I would of course advise you of the appropriate buses etc to get you to mine. Yay!

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

Oh, please meet me at the station! I am not very good with buses in a foreign land. I will grab a sleeping bag and pillow as well as the books.

[chiasmata]

Hee, I'll be there. I'm not doing labwork this afternoon, so there shouldn't be any reason why I can't. Eeeee!

[chiasmata]

Ooh, whilst I think about it, if the weather forecast is set to be chilly this weekend (I have no idea...) it would be a good idea to bring a big hoody or something for wandring round the house in the morning purposes: I think I have the heating system in my room nailed, but the stairs and halls and kitchens are freezing. Yay again!

[morganmuffle]

I've come to the conclusion that the original article/statement/whatever it was from Ekklesia was just very badly written. On the BBC boards everyone's getting het up about the words "article of faith" because they're interpreting it as the guy saying the red poppy is a religious thing whereas I think he meant faith with a little f which it sort of is. And the PC thing I can sort of see too (if you don't wear one then you get shouted down a bit as happened when Huw Edwards had on the wrong jacket or some similar explanation last week) which has a similar feel to a lot of PC/non PC arguments.

It's just all a bit, as if they haven't researched white poppies and haven't really thought what the words they are saying will mean to people... Possibly I can see their point and occasionally I do feel a bit odd wearing a red poppy but to be honest my solution is to buy one to support the RBL and then not wear it. It mostly makes my head hurt.

[slemslempike.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the expectation that of course everyone will wear them (very ostentatiously) is a bit like the PCness.

It's just, if you've thought about poppies as symbols at all, surely you must be aware that there is a white poppy, and what is represents? And I can see his argument, actually, but the whole reporting of it is just confusing.

[sangerin.livejournal.com]

Ekklesia's response is here (http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/content/news_syndication/article_06119altern.shtml). There's also links to a number of previous articles on the question.

They're a good bunch of progressive Christians. I disagree with them on certain things, but that's usually because they have a very UK-centric view ("don't fly on airplanes, travel in other ways"... is a little difficult to apply in Australia if I ever want to see my parents again.)